Arsenal 2 - 0 United

So we lost to Arsenal with basically a B-team. We were well in the gam untill they got their lucky first goal and then we lost our concntration a bit and they scored the second one a bit too easy. But if you look at our team we did quite well. We had 3 players coming from an injury, 1 junior player, and Rooney who hasn't played much lately. At 0-0 we had a couple of good scoring chances that we failed to take. I'm very glad that we gave a rest to Pogba and Bailly because they will be very important to us in the second leg versus Celta. Also good to see Tuanzebe do well in he's full debut(?) and also McTominay got he's debut.

Clearly our aim for this game was to get some game time to the players who haven't been playing so muc (par Herrera and De Gea) and focus on the game on thursday. Now we just have to make sure we win the Europa League as we could have gotten past Liverpool and our next _tough_ game against Tottenham could be a made a bit easier if Chelsea win their next two games to secure the trophy.

I'm not sure what to think of this game and the whole situation we're in.

On one hand it's Jose who has put us in this situation where we are now. For one the fact that he hasn't rotated players enough and maybe that has caused a few injuries. And maybe that he didn't include the likes of Schneiderlin and Schweinsteiger or the young guys more earlier in the season to give the squad more depth. I feel that the 'injury crisis' he is talking about is a bit of a myth and a situation he has created himself. I'm not fond of such motivational tools, because they can't work in the long term.

On the other hand I have to say that he's got us out of the hole in terms of our performances. We're solid defensively in general and attack as well(last season we were solid in defense but at the cost of attack). I guess the squad wasn't good enough at the start of the season and getting us to the point where we're in the fight for a top four(in a league where the level has gone up since last season) and also competing for the EL(where we didn't make it this far last season) and also winning a trophy is a step up. It does feel like we don't need too much addition to the squad to compete for the league and be strong in CL.

I hope we do manage to win the EL. It's not going to be easy, even though we just need to avoid defeat against Celta Vigo at home and then a win against Ajax. It's still a final and it's not like we're sure to win it.

Today's bright spot was Tuanzebe. Getting his first start against Alexis is quite daunting, but he was excellent and really did well against him. I hope he gets more game time. Perhaps even in the coming few games to give a bit more rest to Valencia.

Doesn't happen often, but I do agree with your long post.

I don't think it was necessary to quit fighting for top 4 yet, especially not after Liverpool failed to win against Southampton. It was practically in our hands and with a good result in Vigo, we should have played with a stronger lineup today.

Therefore, I don't agree with Mourinho's latest choice of starting lineups and neither with his substitutions. He didn't manage it quite well imo. For example, had Pogba and Rashford played today instead of Rooney and Carrick/Herrera, we would have been stronger than Arsenal. Pogba could have been rested next Thursday against Celta and kept on the bench just in case. Rashford would have been useful today on a counter, but should have been rested last Thursday, while Martial could have played that game. Mikhi should have been rested in one of those games.

Those are just some examples, but throughout the season there were some players overplayed, while the others rarely got any minutes and therefore wanted to leave.
Depay, Schneiderlin and Schweinsteiger would all been very useful in the 2nd part of the season, so selling them was not the greatest idea.

Now we are in a situation where we must win the EL or we will be left in a bad situation.
We will most probably go to the Finals, probably against Ajax, who are a very good team and it is absolutely not a sure thing we'll beat them.

If we don't qualify for CL, some players will probably want to leave (De Gea first of all) and we will not be able to buy the best players out there, as almost every one of them wants to play in the CL.

I am not sure where would such scenario take Mourinho and whether he would still have the trust of the dressing room, fans and the Board.
Personally, I would give him another chance even if we don't qualify for CL, but I'm not 100% sure United owners would tolerate missing CL one again.

chuksi wrote:

I'm not sure what to think of this game and the whole situation we're in.

On one hand it's Jose who has put us in this situation where we are now. For one the fact that he hasn't rotated players enough and maybe that has caused a few injuries. And maybe that he didn't include the likes of Schneiderlin and Schweinsteiger or the young guys more earlier in the season to give the squad more depth. I feel that the 'injury crisis' he is talking about is a bit of a myth and a situation he has created himself. I'm not fond of such motivational tools, because they can't work in the long term.

Yes and no. The main "rotation" problem has been in the defence where we couldn't rotate during the busiest times because of injuries. Also Zlatan and Pogba has maybe played a bit too much in certain times, but we have been rotating the players around them (and with players who would replace them).

We were a bit unlucky that we had so many games in April and we also had alot of injuries during that month. Pogba was propably injured because he played too much, others I think were just unluck/normal inuries.

Nemanja77 wrote:

Doesn't happen often, but I do agree with your long post.

I don't think it was necessary to quit fighting for top 4 yet, especially not after Liverpool failed to win against Southampton. It was practically in our hands and with a good result in Vigo, we should have played with a stronger lineup today.

But we had to pick our side before that match ended. And I'm quite sure Jose started to plan for this match atleast after the first leg of Europa league. So we could have also been in a situation where Liverpool won, we played our best team (and might have lost/drawn) and the we would be critisizing him for not resting players. I saw the line-up before I had time to check the result from the Liverpool game and I was happy that he rested the key players.

Those are just some examples, but throughout the season there were some players overplayed, while the others rarely got any minutes and therefore wanted to leave.
Depay, Schneiderlin and Schweinsteiger would all been very useful in the 2nd part of the season, so selling them was not the greatest idea.

Here I do agree, he could/should have rotated a bit more when it wasn't necessary. But then we were unlucky and couldn't rotate when there was really a need for it (in April).

If we don't qualify for CL, some players will probably want to leave (De Gea first of all) and we will not be able to buy the best players out there, as almost every one of them wants to play in the CL.

I am not sure where would such scenario take Mourinho and whether he would still have the trust of the dressing room, fans and the Board.
Personally, I would give him another chance even if we don't qualify for CL, but I'm not 100% sure United owners would tolerate missing CL one again.

I think our last 3 transfer windows has proven that argument to be wrong. We have made some huge transfers and have also kept our best players (with De Gea we were lucky though). And we have been in the CL only for one season during that time.

It would be silly to get rid of Mourinho at this moment. He has a plan and even we are not getting the results we want at the moment, I would trust him atleast next season to prove it.

But we had to pick our side before that match ended. And I'm quite sure Jose started to plan for this match atleast after the first leg of Europa league. So we could have also been in a situation where Liverpool won, we played our best team (and might have lost/drawn) and the we would be critisizing him for not resting players. I saw the line-up before I had time to check the result from the Liverpool game and I was happy that he rested the key players.

Liverpool finished their game about 45 minutes before the start of our game.

Anyway, my point was that Mourinho just quit fighting for CL a bit too early. In his press conferences he said that we were going to fight until it was mathematically possible, but he didn't do it. Playing without Pogba, Rashford, Bailly against Arsenal was a proof he decided to quit fighting, just like playing with three players who just got back from injuries (Smalling, Jones and Mata) and a kid who made his debut, Tuanzebe, who btw was one of our best players today.

I am baffled by such mentality, as we were used to fighting until the end always.

I think that he should've rotated even earlier to keep the players from getting to the point where they get injured. That was my whole point. I can understand that perhaps the backups haven't earned his trust and it made sense to use the first 11 so often, but then again..

It all starts from the early cup games where he used Zlatan and Pogba and all the other first 11 players. And later on we didn't do the job quickly enough in the EL group so that he couldn't use the backups in the final game or two etc.

I hope it's different next year when he knows the squad better and has been able to shape it better.

Don't believe his press conferences. He uses them to get the media to turn their attention to whatever he wants. I'm pretty sure he is almost always playing them and if you want to interpret him, you need to look at what his angle is and what he stands to gain from weird quotes.

I don't particularly like his way of doing it. Fergie did it with less collateral damage and that was better.

I think he wanted to fight until the end, but had to rest players at some point and this was a way where he could tell the backups that they need to push more to get to the first 11 while giving them game time against Arsenal. I'm not too fond of those motivating methods(I'd think the squad is motivated enough in general), but that's how Jose works.

Fergie seemed to have a similar effect, but probably kept it all behind closed doors. Told players off there and in the media he chose to keep quiet or praise the players generally. Only on a few occasions did he have a go at them in public. My ideal is that it works better when the team things are kept behind closed doors.

Nemanja77 wrote:

But we had to pick our side before that match ended. And I'm quite sure Jose started to plan for this match atleast after the first leg of Europa league. So we could have also been in a situation where Liverpool won, we played our best team (and might have lost/drawn) and the we would be critisizing him for not resting players. I saw the line-up before I had time to check the result from the Liverpool game and I was happy that he rested the key players.

Liverpool finished their game about 45 minutes before the start of our game.

Indeed I think the premier league rules say that we have to submit our team 1 hour before the kick off. (atleast that's when they are released and they can only make changes to that team if there are real injuries).

Oh yeah Mourinho also said after the Swansea game (or the Celta game) that he now thinks it is mathematically impossible to get to the fourth place. So maybe he just told alternative facts ;)

I think he wanted to fight until the end, but had to rest players at some point and this was a way where he could tell the backups that they need to push more to get to the first 11 while giving them game time against Arsenal. I'm not too fond of those motivating methods(I'd think the squad is motivated enough in general), but that's how Jose works.

I think he decided to concentrate only on EL after our draw against Swansea and after a win away against Celta.

If he wanted to fight until the end in the League, he wouldn't choose the starting lineup with three players coming from several weeks of injuries (Smalling, Jones and Mata), a kid who makes his debut (Tuanzebe, who was great and should have been used before when rotation was needed).
He wouldn't have left Pogba on the bench if he wanted to fight. As I said, Pogba could have played yesterday and then be rested on Thursday and played only in case of emergency. He could have even come on in the 2nd half against Arsenal, but Mourinho kept him on the bench.
All of that is telling me that he dropped it a bit too early and that he is risking much, as it should not be taken for granted that we are going to win the EL.
Mourinho surely knows how to win trophies and therefore I believe and hope he will manage it, but nevertheless I find his rotation throughout the season wrong, as well as some of his latest decisions.

We don't know about Pogba's condition. Nor Bailly's condition. Nor Rashford's.

They've all had knocks recently and there is a risk of injury for them.

I think Jose has taken too many risks with injuries this spring anyway and the way he is pushing players to come back early and make themselves available in public is not totally right. He should at least do it in private. That can't be helping the players.

To me this seems wrong. There isn't a cohesive setting where the manager fights for the players in the press. He leaves them to be criticized and makes the positives about himself. Mourinho gets Mkhitaryan to deliver, Mourinho gets Shaw to shape up. It's all about him. That can't work for long. After all it's the players who play and should get the credit. With Fergie it was never about him. It was about the club and the brilliance of the players. We knew he had a huge role, but that was a given.

It feels like Jose still feels the need to prove himself to others and that might backfire. I think it already has in some cases. I don't think Shaw feels like he has Jose on his side. He should feel the support of Jose. The disputes should be between them and none of our concern. Surely Shaw doesn't respond only to threats via the media? :)


That said I think at last he did the right decision and didn't play the players who have played a lot in recent weeks. It probably cost us the game, because Arsenal just isn't that good, but in the position we're in there was no great alternative. Playing semi-fit players who have played a lot vs playing just semi-fit players.

I'm fine with the result and I hope this season Jose had to make those decisions because he felt that otherwise he might not have the job next season and he'll change his policy on rotation.

We don't know about Pogba's condition. Nor Bailly's condition. Nor Rashford's.

Had Jose' wanted to pursue the top 4, he would have played them.

They were on the bench, so they were available for selection.

If they were over-fatigued, it's mostly Mourinho's fault, as he didn't make turnover when needed, in some games which were less significant and less decisive.

However, as we've mentioned before, it was obvious that Mourinho decided to drop out of the race for top 4 after the draw with Swansea and after the away win against Celta.

For me, it was a wrong thing to do as there were still decent chances of finishing top 4, while the EL trophy is not in our cabinet yet.

Therefore, deciding to make a massive turnover against Arsenal might leave us empty-handed, so I'd say Mourinho is gambling a lot here.

Now, he is walking a tightrope because of this situation and not only him, but the whole club. We all know the importance of playing in Champions League, so you can imagine the consequences if we don't win the Europa League.

Concerning Mourinho's public criticizing of some players, I understand that not every human being is the same and therefore players react in a different way. While a public bashing might push someone to do more, it might have a negative effect on another person. As a manager, you must know the soul of your players in order to choose correctly and make your man-management successful. In this case, I think Mourinho got carried away and exaggerated a bit. He feels a lot of pressure, imo he expected the things to be a tad easier and once the results were not as good as expected, he started to blame everyone around: players, referees, fixtures, luck, brexit, Margaret Thatcher... :)

I might agree with him in some cases, but I think a big part of the responsibility goes to himself as well, as at the end he is the leader, the person to decide who to buy/sell, who to play, which formation to choose etc.

Let's wait and see how this ends, as there is still the last straw called Europa League.
If we win it, this season might even be remembered as successful from a certain time distance, because of two trophies and a CL qualification.

I really hope it won't go the other way...

At the end of the day all the remaining teams in the EL are one thing -- average. It's a bunch of Stoke's & Everton's. If we can't take care of them & take that trophy down our issues are bigger than worrying about whether we can finish top 4 or not.

I agree with JM's gamble to take down the EL, surely we're able to beat Ajax?

I agree with JM's gamble to take down the EL, surely we're able to beat Ajax?

Let's eliminate Celta Vigo first.

We are favorites, that's for sure, but I hope we won't underestimate neither Celta, nor Ajax if we get to the Finals.

Ajax are a quick team, playing free-flowing football with lots of players in attack.

They arrive to the opponent's goal quite easily, can create lots of chances and shots, but on the other hand they often leave their defence uncovered.

Therefore, it will depend on us and our possibility to:

1. Defend well against quick and unpredictable attackers.

2. Convert our chances once we get them.


They have a dangerous attacking trio of Dolberg, Younes and Traoré (with Ziyech, Klaassen and Schone often joining from the middle) so we will need to have our awareness at maximum level and our midfielders will also need to be concentrated and track back a lot.
We must be especially aware against Traoré, whom I predict to be in the headlines when it comes to the transfer market this Summer.

I think that it was a case of one or the other. Had we won against Swansea, then we would've been 3p behind Liverpool with 2 games less played at kick off on Sunday. As we still had Arsenal and Tottenham away it was still a tough ask to get ahead of Liverpool in the league. Southampton and Palace might be somewhat easier because they have nothing to play for, but they're probably still not much weaker than the EL teams. To get 4 results in the league against who are on average stronger opponents vs getting one draw + winning the final in EL. I know which I think is more likely.

For me the current decisions are fine in isolation. The problem started in October or even before. Not playing the second 11 often enough and pushing the first 11 to the brink. It has surely played a part in them getting injured. I can understand the reasoning behind him choosing the way he has and I can't say whether it's wrong or right, because in general we've played well and perhaps that's the result of him not playing those who he feels don't do what he asks of them.

Let's just hope that next season he'll be happy to play the second 11 in more games and rotate normally. And most importantly - use his subs more early, especially bringing on youngsters and helping reduce the load on our big players. Rotation is key to a successful season.

All of this reminds me of how much I miss Fergie. The more comparison you have, the more you see how amazing he really was. Even with Jose the differences are noticeable.

All of this reminds me of how much I miss Fergie. The more comparison you have, the more you see how amazing he really was. Even with Jose the differences are noticeable.

You can say that again!

How many times did I think of that in the last three seasons...

I miss about everything, from the way we used to play, team organization, all the way to his press conferences, interviews and statements.

Of course, he did make some errors in his career (who didn't?) especially in his last seasons, but nevertheless he was the best manager ever without a doubt, a complete package.

Mourinho was my wish ever since the first talks of Fergie's retirement, as I was convinced he was the real man to succeed SAF. It would have been much, much better had he came in 2013, but we were unlucky.
Now, in a much tougher circumstances after Moyes and Van Gaal left a bit of a mess, Mourinho is trying hard to rebuild a team, make it play as he wants and shape it by his liking, which is not easy, especially as he himself is changing during this process.

After he came to United, Mourinho started to change his behavior and he seemed to be more calm than usual, seemed as a true Man Utd manager, with exemplary behavior and without creating battles with everyone around. He really seemed a changed person, evolving also in a tactical way and trying to form an attacking team, rather than a team playing mostly to defend and counter.
However, there is a saying that a wolf can change his coat but not his temper. I was thinking about this after we played several games mostly defensive and Mourinho seemed to go back to his usual ways. I also remembered this saying when he attacked some of his players in public. Hence, I can just hope he will continue his own evolution in the right way, instead of regressing and returning to some old habits.

Now, in a much tougher circumstances after Moyes and Van Gaal left a bit of a mess, Mourinho is trying hard to rebuild a team, make it play as he wants and shape it by his liking, which is not easy, especially as he himself is changing during this process.

Is he changing?

I'm not so sure.

I mean - when he had to defend himself at the start of the season and named a lot of young players who he gave a debut to. Now he can add Tuanzebe there, but has he really given him a chance so far? I have my doubts there. While Fergie might have been happy with the set of players we have for right back (the 'regulars' + Fosu-Mensah and Tuanzebe), I can see Jose buying a new defender just to challenge Valencia. Which isn't going to help the young boys.

I have the same concern about Martial and Rashford. I think we need to get them to play better instead of going out and buying some new striker. Unless it's Mbappe, which is totally different as he is young and probably going to be one of the big players in the next decade.

I think next season will be the real test for him. I'm not even talking about the results, but the way he handles the squad. We'll see if he is in it for the long haul or not. I quite disliked that during the last 7 days there was a quote of him saying that he isn't ruling out a return to Inter. He should just say that he is happy at United and looking to stay for a long time instead of saying something to please the Inter fans. Doing something like that shows that he isn't 100% committed. That combined with him hanging players out to dry and talking in the press after a win how his great plan worked and how his team was the best is something that irks me and makes me feel like he doesn't get that he isn't the centerpiece. If he does well, then in 5 years he might be the centerpiece, but even then he shouldn't have a reason to shout out that he is the best. Just let the results do the talking...

Even though I think he is a very good manager and I enjoy this season more than last season I just don't think that in the long run it's going to work out. I really hope he proves me wrong, but so far he hasn't really shown too many signs of changing.

After he came to United, Mourinho started to change his behavior and he seemed to be more calm than usual, seemed as a true Man Utd manager, with exemplary behavior and without creating battles with everyone around.

The first few months he seemed to pick quite a few fights. Twice sent off before the end of October, being weird and not playing Miki, ignoring Shaw.. It seems like he is his usual self, picking fights here and there. Winter was weirdly quiet with him though. But he had quieter spells at other clubs as well IMO.

I don't mind his tactics in big games. Fergie used to play defensively in select games as well and this isn't a problem in my opinion. I mean - United never went to Anfield looking to play open football. At least I can't remember that happening. I think in games of that intensity you can't do that. The Arsenal game was just poor. We didn't create enough. I'd blame it mostly on the lack of rotation, which is a result of other things like not trusting half the squad 3-5 months ago. Perhaps that was with reason and we'd be in a poorer situation if he had rotated more back then and because of that I'm not too fussed about it, but this shouldn't happen again next year. If it does, then it's Jose's fault. Right now I'm fine with how things are.

chuksi wrote:

Is he [Mourinho] changing?

I'm not so sure.

I believe he's trying to change his mentality. It's "always" been to go in and win. To me, he sounds like he really wants just a taste of what Ferguson had and that he plans/hopes to be a United-manager for some time to come.

I hope he grows with the task, as there's few managers out there I believe has the format to walk in those footsteps. José, however little I like him, is one of those few if he can change his ways.

Edit: In NFL terms, I'd call José a "Win now"-strategist, like we've seen the Texans recently try to build a SB hope on their defense, while Ferguson was more of the Bill Belichik who aims to always get the most out of his resources and always build for the long run - even when the long run sometimes is just the next season. Whatever's best for the club.

Interesting:
(http://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/80195...ville)